The Wage Gap
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We'll do this real quick if we can. To begin with, I want equality within the USA. This means everyone judged on effort and merit and abilities. We have to view ourselves as individuals, and not groups. We'll concern ourselves with individual rights that should apply no matter who the person. We need to move away from saying "this race or gender performed better or worse" and ask "is the quality of education accesible by all people the same?". I've ranted on this before with Title IX extended to education, where people should be able to do what they want, and not worry about quotas. People will do the jobs they want to do and extend as much effort as they want to.
As you may have already thought to yourself, "But Michael, earlier in your VAWA rant, you did exactly that, labelling a law bad because you were concerned with it not adequately covering men. You were absolutely concerned with groups!" And you would be correct. To my credit, I want it to adequately and fairly cover men so that the language in the law becomes one of covering an individual.
So, the Wage Gap!!
As you recently heard Obama state, that a woman still gets paid 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. Or 76 cents, or 70 cents. It changes depending on who is saying it, and it's been said for a LONG time. Here's the real story. This pay difference comes from the mean pay of all men and the mean pay of all women. I found a version of the Census Bureau's results here. Not exactly a specific look at job requirements, education level required or obtained, commute times, safety, hours, flexibility, replaceability, etc. The most accurate look at this would be do break this down into job sectors, and find where men and women perform the same job. Once you do that, observe the education level. See who's been in the company longer or had more experience. See which one is more likely to work longer hours or make more personal sacrifices to the company. If all things are equal, and there's still an enourmous gap, then we have a problem, and one that should certainly be fixed! It's my contention, that any significant pay gap sprouting from intentional sexism doesn't exist.
Now some articles! Please read here, here, and then watch this video. Then read the article by Warren Farrell. As you have already noticed, some of these take a more balanced look than others, but the underlying point still remains of differences is job choices, job difficulties, etc.
Again, as I've mentioned before, I don't doubt real discrimination exists. It's mentioned in one of the articles above. Is the answer more government? I think not. This should be taken on as grassroots. If you work at a company and see this before, discourage it. If you are the company, set up mentors to encourage new employees and support them. Promote yourself as an equal opportunity kind of workplace. Then you'll attract and keep the employees, and those companies lacking will have to work to get back a workforce. Citizen activist groups that already exist that are trying to persuade the government to pass laws, could instead do a Consumer Reports sort of methodology. Interview people working at companies, get a feel for the environment, etc. Then post results rating corporations based on how they support employees growth in the company and provide a enriching workplace.
I know personally I want to avoid certain jobs here because I know about some companies' cultures that I don't want to be a part of. If I was still single, moving to another location to work for a better company would be an option I would persue. Now my wife and I will have to make these choices together. If moving isn't possible, we work within the company, band together with other employees, etc. Having the government mandate equal pay for the same job is a dangerous proposition. Does my 50 hour week count the same as my coworkers 40 hour week? Companies do reward more for more sacrifices on their behalf. If you don't want to sacrifice, then don't expect to get paid the same as someone who does.
Like is mentioned in the article and video, if women do the same work for less, why aren't they being hired more than men? We this practice in motion all the time with labor and immigrants.
Since you brought this up Riley, I'm curious what instances you'd be able to talk about where you've seen a real sexist discrimination on pay.
I love you all,
Mike
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Well, in the interests of one of my fellow employees finding this and my not getting fired, I'm unfortunately going to keep it fairly general for now. However, there are several instances I can point out at my own work environment.
First off, I just want to point off that completely unrelated to wages, but rather in general, women tend to get a raw deal. And I don't think it's anything to do with laws or anything like that -- it's all the "old school" folks running around. And when you say that word, try your best to be pissed and spit. For example, many of the women I'm friends with at work tell me about certain members of our executive staff that tend to make...inappropriate remarks. Now, gentlemen, ask yourselves: when was the last time you were walking along and a woman who was your superior made a remark about wanting to squeeze *your* ass? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it happens a heckuva lot less.
Regarding wages in general, there is one specific story I'd like to share. One of my coworkers was hired about a year before I was for a specific job. Now, the budget and plan for this position (since it was a new position) had already been decided ahead of time. They budgeted $65,000 for her position. She was hired on at $45,000. I should point out that she was completely qualified for this position, and a salary of $65,000+ is not very unheard of at my org. for the level of the position. Who can really say why she isn't making the higher salary? No one for sure. That's the whole problem with the "wage gap" issue. Many times it hides in the shadows. It's not a structured sort of thing -- it's someone getting passed up for a position every now and then, it's someone making a little bit less than everyone else in the office.
I'll be responding to the articles and presenting some of my own as well, but unfortunately I'm out the door for a night on the town, so it will have to wait till later. Till then, ado.
Also, just wanted to say, glad we can have these kinds of discussions, I find it very interesting to hear everyone's different views...it's especially interesting to find out people see things I take very much for granted differently than I do :D
By Riley Dutton on 08/29,2008, at 19:21
Is that larger amount of pay not unheard of for someone starting or a more tenured employee? How easy is this position to refill at this point?
But, old people do screw things up. I'll give you that. IT'S JUST A SERIES OF TUBES!
The other issue is, if men speak up wanting more money at an interview, they can be seen as a go-getter, etc. If a woman does, more times than not, she'll be seen as pushy or obnoxious, and that does have an effect on the pay.
As for having my ass grabbed or talked about by a superior, yep, happened to me! It was all in good fun at a party, so no foul or anything.
By Mike on 08/29,2008, at 22:21
Remember that time when I got accused of sexual harrasment because the chick wanted to leave but I never did anything? Yeah, everyone totally believed her and I almost lost my job. Good stuff.
That has nothing to do with wage gaps.
By James on 08/29,2008, at 23:23
I work in a restaurant that will remain nameless where sexual harassment is a daily event. But it's all in good fun and no one seems to really care about it. Maybe it's the employees themselves or maybe it's that we've all accepted it as a daily thing and no one cares anymore. This comes back to the whole thing of once an event becomes commonplace it loses it's offensiveness. Now before someone calls somebody, it's not like we go up to the new girl on her first day and give her a nice smack on the ass. It's between people that have known each other for years.
By Fife on 08/30,2008, at 13:32
Yeah, but that's the issue. Where do you draw the line b/w sexual harrassment and mutual good fun?
I remember at orientation for employment, I had to attend a talk about sexual harrasment. The teacher told us that it wasn't "intent" that mattered, but "impact". This was surprising considering the law in most other crimes makes a distinction in the two, whereby the combination defines the punishment. In this case, it is only the impact. I was further confused when she called someone a "studmuffin". This was used as an example, of course. HOWEVER. If I was the person she called a studmuffin (even in example) I would have been tempted to accuse her of sexual harrasment. Why? Because, her intent was nil (it was for example), but I could SAY that the impact was large and she couldn't prove otherwise. This has nothing to do with wage gaps. Sorry :D
By James on 08/30,2008, at 14:31
My mother has two master's degrees in education. Two bachelor's degrees. Worked in my home USD for 15 years and was then fired in favor of a male administrator who had only been around 1 year. Turns out, she also made the least amount in the pool of district administrators and fell below her less-experienced replacement's salary by approximately 10Gs. Yep. Now, besides being called a studmuffin, have any of you seen that kind of inequality in your life? In dissecting this, I'm going to talk about some of the reasons women remain underpaid, under educated, and generally left out to dry.
Community. I love talk about banding together at work to demand equality. I wish it happened. But it doesn't. Even when my mom's friends found out about her discrimination, not a single one encouraged her to come forward about it. I actually got into trouble at a Board of Education meeting for speaking on behalf of my mother. I was yelled at by the woman on the board for being too young to understand the situation. I was 18 at the time. I was just named valedictorian of my class. I am a damn smart woman. It was bullshit. But we don't do anything about it. Another example: Lilly Ledbetter. She was a goodyear manager in Alabama for 20 years. She filed suit in 1998 for pay discrimination. This past year, the Supreme Court fucked her over. Because she claimed that the discrimination was long standing, Justice Alito wrote that her claim of discrimination didn't happen within the 180 day statute and therefore those years of sexual discrimination could not be addressed because the "actual intentional discrimination" wasn't recent enough. Congress decided to update the law to acknowledge wage discrimination was a continual act. It failed. Because fucktards like Pat Roberts, our fine KS Senator, didn't believe it was their place as LAWMAKERS to change statutes. Seriously. I have an email from him that says that. And that is fucked up. The time limit was not changed. The new law would not affect termination proceedings, merely addressed the wage issue. And the Senate GOP stopped it from ever being voted on in their chamber. So, unless you all plan on ousting Mr. Roberts from office this November and launch a major reform movement, the laws governing our society will continue to disregard wage issues as possible discriminatory actions. Because it is illegal for me to ask my co-workers their salary or their merit raise.
Next, while we all agree that women should be allowed to do whatever they want (right?), it is still an issue for women to be welcomed into the workplace. A lot of progress has been made, but it doesn't change the fact that women are not equally represented and we (men or women) are not allowed to defy conventions. People judge me for not taking my husband's name. People judge my husband for not forcing me to do so. And it is societal restrictions as ridiculous as this that keep white men atop the food chain. I understand and agree that Title IX is awful. Fuck Lew Perkins for screwing KU students into paying for an unnecessary addition to KUAC by playing the gender card. And in education statistics, Title IX issues only get more infuriating. But that doesn't mean more young girls don't need to be encouraged to participate in math and science. With politicians and shits like Ann Coulter telling us we can't live up, it means we as a society have to step in and tell girls they can. And when that doesn't happen spontaneously, the government should step in and do it. I don't like that I have to ask politicians to support equality. I wish it was inherent. It is not. I don't blame you, but I will fight you trying to stop it from taking part in government. For example, Mike mentioned there were places that he would prefer not to work in because of the climate their employees work in. That's awesome and I hope that issues like this affect your decisions. But imagine that you don't have the option to make those kind of choices. Who can help you? Your co-workers? I've already discussed that. You turn to the government. It is imperfect. But find me a better way. A private company making outside reports? That remains neutral, either pro or anti commercial interests? Good luck. This will only create a circular argument.
As to the quick comment about why companies won't hire more women because it is cheaper, well, I imagine that most companies don't go into hiring with the intention of discrimination. Our laws would have trampled that by now. The fact that illegals are hired at less is exactly because we don't have laws that deal with that situation properly. Same as shipping jobs oversees. And illegals have even less recourse than women.
Last comment, and this is regarding the 75 cents on the dollar issue. I have looked at the same Census Bureau data. And I see the exact same things you see. But what I don't think you grasp is that society prevents women from competing on the same level. I think most wage gap issues reside in social restrictions and less in money distribution. It would be hard in this day and age to hire two people performing the same task and pay them differently. But it is still definitely an issue that women are not a part of certain professions in an understandable proportion. For example, when you think of the person that brings you food at a restaurant, you probably think of the word "waitress" as opposed to server. There is gender assumed for most professions and this affects women's ability to earn at comparable rates. Another example in the opposite direction, think of the word "lawyer" and you probably come up with an image of a white male in a suit. Get ride of those pictures in your head and we won't have to have conversations like this. And this 2008 election cycle wouldn't include phrases like "glass ceiling". Which I personally hate. It depicts women as unable to break glass. Throw a stone. Good bye, glass anything. Even as public and powerful as women are, our stones aren't big enough to be equal. And before any of you make testicle comments, might I remind you of my heinous bitch warning.
By Cayla Witty on 08/31,2008, at 01:22
It is real easy to say to someone, "get rid of those images in your head". But the fact remains that it's almost impossible. That's how we learn, word association. Until we have brain implants and nanobots in our bloodstream that educate us, thats the way we will continue to learn.
By Fife on 08/31,2008, at 12:07
I for one, welcome my non-discriminatory robot overlords.
By James on 08/31,2008, at 12:25
From my vantage point here at WSU, I see nothing but outreach programs to attract girls and start to break down these wrong ideas where you think of a geeky male as an engineer. Society of Women Engineers has a student chapter at WSU, and led by my wife, she put together a summer camp for young girls to do some pretty cool engineering related activities. The camp was such a success, it was brought back for another year, and hopefully they keep bringing it back.
These are the efforts that are needed. Bottom up types of campaigns. No one made anybody start SWE. People just came together and started doing what was necessary.
Stones aren't big enough to be equal? Are you serious? Of course they are! That's why women have been moving into typically male jobs for the past 50 years and breaking societal norms without government help!
And what about men moving into typically female jobs like nurses? They're made fun of and even looked down upon. Do they get paid less because of it? Men represent a vast minority in college. They earn fewer higher degrees than women, and are underrepresented in humanities, social sciences, biology, etc. More women graduate college every year than men! Are we going to use the government to put quotas on men in these jobs and school because they're underrepresented?
I didn't think it was illegal to discuss your salary. Some company contracts do prohibit you from talking about it, but any of my searching hasn't turned up a state or federal law against talking about your salary. Maybe you can enlighten me if such a law exists.
By Mike on 08/31,2008, at 13:39
More women are going to college, but since more man folk work, I assume those degrees are becoming place mats over which pies are presented for male consumption.
Seriously, though, while I think there is progress on correcting many wrong as to gender in the workforce, I have no doubt that there are man who realize that they "can" pay a women a lesser wage and do. If a businessman can get away with shorting someone, he will.
Also: I think it is against company rules, yes. But, all that means is that legally when Lady Worksalot asks me how much I make, I can turn her ass in to be fired, scott-free, and cackle instead of allowing her to make me feel uncomfortable about the fact that I make $.25 more than her on the dollar.
By nolant on 09/01,2008, at 10:56
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By noland on 10/20,2008, at 16:00